Topic: War and wonder

[AlienBC]

Kind of an unusual thing to have in a place that reportedly was simply a death factory.

Serves as a reminder and I can not think of a better way to keep it in the peoples minds than to see it for real.


Thanks for sharing, it's a place I could not visit and would not



Estimates of total dead in WWII range from 62 million to over 78 million of that only 5.7 million to 6.0 million (or even slightly higher) Jewish souls died. as not to spoil the thread I have to force my self away let the figurers speak for me. 

[goldshirt*9]

hopefully i will have some more "original " pictures soon from the liberation days

[smokester]

Estimates of total dead in WWII range from 62 million to over 78 million of that only 5.7 million to 6.0 million (or even slightly higher) Jewish souls died. as not to spoil the thread I have to force my self away let the figurers speak for me. 

A huge number of the deaths were the Chinese at the hands of the Japanese during the Second Sino-Japanese War, and that started in 1937 I believe.  It wasn't until the Japanese went to war with the Americans that they became part of the European conflict which in turn became a 'World war'.  The point is that the Sino-Japanese War accounts for about 20 million deaths, 18,000,000 were civilians, but very little is written of that atrocity.

[AlienBC]

I take issue with the word holocaust  The true definition of the word holocaust is sacrifice
A holocaust is a religious animal sacrifice that is completely consumed by fire. The word derives from the Ancient Greek holocaustos (ὁλόκαυστος = ὁλον ...


What happened to the Jews was no sacrifice or holocaust as history likes to call it. It was genocide
  Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.


It?s makes me angry when they use the term  holocaust  when referring to the genocide of the Jews

[smokester]

I think you'll find that 'Holocaust' means Whole + burnt.  The controversy is that many other ethnic groups were massacred along with other 'imperfect' people - it wasn't just the Jews.  Not only that but the Japanese were just as reprehensible as the Nazis and were at it a long time before them.  But history seems to gloss over that?

[AlienBC]

oops hit delete instead of edit!!!



'Holocaust' means Whole + burnt.   within the context of a sacrifice.
For me you can not have a Holocaust without a sacrifice.

many other ethnic groups were massacred along with other 'imperfect' people - it wasn't just the Jews

but you never hear much about that, it's always look what happened to the poor Jews. As if they where the only god dam race that suffered

[smokester]

It is not untrue that what happened to the Jews was one of the most horrific atrocities that has occurred during our history, but it only ranks somewhere in the a list of about 10. 

I have no problem with their plight being dragged up constantly through the ages as the world does need a reminder.  But... the one thing I do take issue with is the religious intolerance displayed by Israel as that is a contradiction gone too far.

[AlienBC]

I have no problem with their plight being dragged up constantly through the ages as the world does need a reminder.  But... the one thing I do take issue with is the religious intolerance displayed by Israel as that is a contradiction gone too far.

Like the guy how runs Camden market is he's an Israeli I sadly met one evening what a vile man!!! He hated Palestinians with venom. He talked with the same passion Hitler had for exterminating the Jews he was evil. This type of Israeli  i dislike intensely But the minority  of Israelis want peace with the Palestinians.

[smokester]

Like the guy how runs Camden market is he's an Israeli I sadly met one evening what a vile man!!! He hated Palestinians with venom. He talked with the same passion Hitler had for exterminating the Jews he was evil. This type of Israeli  i dislike intensely But the minority  of Israelis want peace with the Palestinians.

The only guy I know who fits that bill was a guy called Joe who used to run a few bars and other small businesses in Camden.  He actually sold up to an Morrocan (Muslim of course) fellow called Jimmy that used to be his chef and he ended up running WKDs and Arizonas - two of the more popular bars there. Joe used to grumble on about many things but in the end he had to cooperate with everyone and anyone.

Virtually all of Camden is actually owned by the Bloom family, everyone else just rents space.  The original Camden market is the small one by the station and I'm not sure who oversees that?  I know most people of influence in Camden but the place is only popular (most popular tourist attraction in the UK) because of the multitude of different types of people that inhabit and frequent it.  From one religious order to the next, from Goth to hardhouse clubber, from busker to concert pianist - Camden had them all.  It is/was unique because we all accepted each other and the right to be there, and no one was bullied because of what they wore or for what they believed in.

Much has changed there now but it is an ironic example when talking of tolerance, as it was a requirement to even be there in the first place. 

The guy who is now shutting down all the businesses in the arches and surrounding area is actually an Eastern European and he is totally ruthless.  I would imagine there are far more that find him abhorent than the guy you first mentioned.

[AlienBC]

I don't remember his name now but he was more hateful than Hitler which I found to be ironic. I use to hang out in Camden at weekend back in the 80s for most reasons you just listed  I thought I owed The Worlds End at one stage lol Hell the amount of money I put the other side of the bar I should own it 

[smokester]

Back in the 80s I used to half live in Dingwalls, but mainly for the Jazz as I kissed goodbye to my Punk days a few years earlier.

[AlienBC]

I don't remember that one. Talking of pubs forgot to say in your other thread I sometimes use to go up to the one at the top of Muswell Hill it use to be the old dairy I think 

[redlandslide]

This type of Israeli  i dislike intensely But the minority  of Israelis want peace with the Palestinians.

I would have hoped it would have been the majority of Israelis who wanted peace.


The ease with which the topic went from perpetrators of wartime attrocities to Camden matketeers is alarming and makes me glad I've never been to Camden market. Especially the dude who was "more hateful than Hitler". 

[AlienBC]

redlandslide I stand corrected cheers for that I did mean majority
I thought back then and a much younger me it was a great place to hang out.
As smoketster pointed out a very diverse crowd of people. That monster and I parted company on very bad terms. I was and still am and always will be sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.

[smokester]

I don't remember that one. Talking of pubs forgot to say in your other thread I sometimes use to go up to the one at the top of Muswell Hill it use to be the old dairy I think 

The Old Dairy was the one at the bottom of Crouch Hill and is still there doing well.  The one at the top of Muswell Hill is the Green Man and that still ticks over.

Dingwalls was legendary in Camden:

http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/venues_dingwalls.htm

The ease with which the topic went from perpetrators of wartime attrocities to Camden matketeers is alarming and makes me glad I've never been to Camden market.

You would have liked Camden as it was very easy to be at, very much like the relaxed vibe that Liverpool has.  Nowadays you just think it was full of plastic soap dodgers and wanabee hippies.

PS, I am about the spilt this out and leave Goldies thread intact.