Topic: War and wonder

[AlienBC]

Kind of an unusual thing to have in a place that reportedly was simply a death factory.

Serves as a reminder and I can not think of a better way to keep it in the peoples minds than to see it for real.


Thanks for sharing, it's a place I could not visit and would not



Estimates of total dead in WWII range from 62 million to over 78 million of that only 5.7 million to 6.0 million (or even slightly higher) Jewish souls died. as not to spoil the thread I have to force my self away let the figurers speak for me. 

[goldshirt*9]

hopefully i will have some more "original " pictures soon from the liberation days

[smokester]

Estimates of total dead in WWII range from 62 million to over 78 million of that only 5.7 million to 6.0 million (or even slightly higher) Jewish souls died. as not to spoil the thread I have to force my self away let the figurers speak for me. 

A huge number of the deaths were the Chinese at the hands of the Japanese during the Second Sino-Japanese War, and that started in 1937 I believe.  It wasn't until the Japanese went to war with the Americans that they became part of the European conflict which in turn became a 'World war'.  The point is that the Sino-Japanese War accounts for about 20 million deaths, 18,000,000 were civilians, but very little is written of that atrocity.

[AlienBC]

I take issue with the word holocaust  The true definition of the word holocaust is sacrifice
A holocaust is a religious animal sacrifice that is completely consumed by fire. The word derives from the Ancient Greek holocaustos (ὁλόκαυστος = ὁλον ...


What happened to the Jews was no sacrifice or holocaust as history likes to call it. It was genocide
  Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.


It?s makes me angry when they use the term  holocaust  when referring to the genocide of the Jews

[smokester]

I think you'll find that 'Holocaust' means Whole + burnt.  The controversy is that many other ethnic groups were massacred along with other 'imperfect' people - it wasn't just the Jews.  Not only that but the Japanese were just as reprehensible as the Nazis and were at it a long time before them.  But history seems to gloss over that?

[AlienBC]

oops hit delete instead of edit!!!



'Holocaust' means Whole + burnt.   within the context of a sacrifice.
For me you can not have a Holocaust without a sacrifice.

many other ethnic groups were massacred along with other 'imperfect' people - it wasn't just the Jews

but you never hear much about that, it's always look what happened to the poor Jews. As if they where the only god dam race that suffered

[smokester]

It is not untrue that what happened to the Jews was one of the most horrific atrocities that has occurred during our history, but it only ranks somewhere in the a list of about 10. 

I have no problem with their plight being dragged up constantly through the ages as the world does need a reminder.  But... the one thing I do take issue with is the religious intolerance displayed by Israel as that is a contradiction gone too far.

[AlienBC]

I have no problem with their plight being dragged up constantly through the ages as the world does need a reminder.  But... the one thing I do take issue with is the religious intolerance displayed by Israel as that is a contradiction gone too far.

Like the guy how runs Camden market is he's an Israeli I sadly met one evening what a vile man!!! He hated Palestinians with venom. He talked with the same passion Hitler had for exterminating the Jews he was evil. This type of Israeli  i dislike intensely But the minority  of Israelis want peace with the Palestinians.

[smokester]

Like the guy how runs Camden market is he's an Israeli I sadly met one evening what a vile man!!! He hated Palestinians with venom. He talked with the same passion Hitler had for exterminating the Jews he was evil. This type of Israeli  i dislike intensely But the minority  of Israelis want peace with the Palestinians.

The only guy I know who fits that bill was a guy called Joe who used to run a few bars and other small businesses in Camden.  He actually sold up to an Morrocan (Muslim of course) fellow called Jimmy that used to be his chef and he ended up running WKDs and Arizonas - two of the more popular bars there. Joe used to grumble on about many things but in the end he had to cooperate with everyone and anyone.

Virtually all of Camden is actually owned by the Bloom family, everyone else just rents space.  The original Camden market is the small one by the station and I'm not sure who oversees that?  I know most people of influence in Camden but the place is only popular (most popular tourist attraction in the UK) because of the multitude of different types of people that inhabit and frequent it.  From one religious order to the next, from Goth to hardhouse clubber, from busker to concert pianist - Camden had them all.  It is/was unique because we all accepted each other and the right to be there, and no one was bullied because of what they wore or for what they believed in.

Much has changed there now but it is an ironic example when talking of tolerance, as it was a requirement to even be there in the first place. 

The guy who is now shutting down all the businesses in the arches and surrounding area is actually an Eastern European and he is totally ruthless.  I would imagine there are far more that find him abhorent than the guy you first mentioned.

[AlienBC]

I don't remember his name now but he was more hateful than Hitler which I found to be ironic. I use to hang out in Camden at weekend back in the 80s for most reasons you just listed  I thought I owed The Worlds End at one stage lol Hell the amount of money I put the other side of the bar I should own it 

[smokester]

Back in the 80s I used to half live in Dingwalls, but mainly for the Jazz as I kissed goodbye to my Punk days a few years earlier.

[AlienBC]

I don't remember that one. Talking of pubs forgot to say in your other thread I sometimes use to go up to the one at the top of Muswell Hill it use to be the old dairy I think 

[redlandslide]

This type of Israeli  i dislike intensely But the minority  of Israelis want peace with the Palestinians.

I would have hoped it would have been the majority of Israelis who wanted peace.


The ease with which the topic went from perpetrators of wartime attrocities to Camden matketeers is alarming and makes me glad I've never been to Camden market. Especially the dude who was "more hateful than Hitler". 

[AlienBC]

redlandslide I stand corrected cheers for that I did mean majority
I thought back then and a much younger me it was a great place to hang out.
As smoketster pointed out a very diverse crowd of people. That monster and I parted company on very bad terms. I was and still am and always will be sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.

[smokester]

I don't remember that one. Talking of pubs forgot to say in your other thread I sometimes use to go up to the one at the top of Muswell Hill it use to be the old dairy I think 

The Old Dairy was the one at the bottom of Crouch Hill and is still there doing well.  The one at the top of Muswell Hill is the Green Man and that still ticks over.

Dingwalls was legendary in Camden:

http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/venues_dingwalls.htm

The ease with which the topic went from perpetrators of wartime attrocities to Camden matketeers is alarming and makes me glad I've never been to Camden market.

You would have liked Camden as it was very easy to be at, very much like the relaxed vibe that Liverpool has.  Nowadays you just think it was full of plastic soap dodgers and wanabee hippies.

PS, I am about the spilt this out and leave Goldies thread intact.

[AlienBC]

I remember the The Green Man as you go up the hill is on the right just before the roundabout. Now my memory seems to say the dairy was opposite the green man.   Ok back on topic Just for the record I'm not anti semitic hell I have met some great Jewish characters over the years. One Jewish friend use to crack me up. Every time he met someone new even the darn taxi driver he would tell them " My uncle is in prison in Israel for painting anti war slogans one night on over 300 Israel tanks.  But I do get annoyed when some not all start banging on  about how there race has been persecuted over the centuries. As if as said before they where the only race. And what really makes me go super nova is when you don't agree and attack there politics in anyway they pill out the  anti semitic. Which I would love to shove up there rear end.   Now i'm starting to rant......end trans

[Geemonster]

but you never hear much about that, it's always look what happened to the poor Jews. As if they where the only god dam race that suffered

Civilians do most of the suffering in war.
  Politicians do most of the scheming and plotting.

[redlandslide]

Just for the record I'm not anti semitic hell I have met some great Jewish characters over the years. One Jewish friend use to crack me up. Every time he met someone new even the darn taxi driver he would tell them " My uncle is in prison in Israel for painting anti war slogans one night on over 300 Israel tanks.  But I do get annoyed when some not all start banging on  about how there race has been persecuted over the centuries. As if as said before they where the only race. And what really makes me go super nova is when you don't agree and attack there politics in anyway they pill out the  anti semitic. Which I would love to shove up there rear end.

Why do Jewish people who "bang on how their race has been persecuted over the centuries" bother you so much? Jews have been persecuted over the years. That's a fact. Around 6 million Jews were killed during the holocaust (78% of Jews in occupied Europe at that time). Obviously other races/religions have been persecuted over the centuries as well, anyone who says otherwise is wrong, but is seems reasonable to me for Jews to highlight atrocities against Jews. I've certainly never met (or read about or seen on TV) a Jew who says no other religion has experienced any persecution in the past.

[ohcheap1]

I cant speak for anyone but I think ABC might mean that he doesnt like it when a culture uses its past traumas to justify the present without making an attempt to overcome along the way. EVERYONE'S culture has some sort of violence or betrayal, my family is American Indian and my Grandpa grew up on a reservation but he went on to become the owner/president of his own construction company and even though he shared with us the hard times that his family went through he never used it as "an out". That's how Im reading this but thats just me......

[AlienBC]

ohcheap1  understood It's the way they use it...........



Anyhow  back to work

[AlienBC]

Ok moving on, been thinking about this. I really don?t think percentage matters were ethnic groups are concerned. The fact is the Jews suffered huge losses under horrific conditions.  Although I have no desire to visit the camp on the grounds of being too sensitive. The camp as caused enough pain and sorrow, why add one more to its list.  Thanks for posting those pictures I did get this kind of sinister feel from them, maybe because of knowing what went on.



cheers

[smokester]

Why do Jewish people who "bang on how their race has been persecuted over the centuries" bother you so much? Jews have been persecuted over the years. That's a fact. Around 6 million Jews were killed during the holocaust (78% of Jews in occupied Europe at that time). Obviously other races/religions have been persecuted over the centuries as well, anyone who says otherwise is wrong, but is seems reasonable to me for Jews to highlight atrocities against Jews. I've certainly never met (or read about or seen on TV) a Jew who says no other religion has experienced any persecution in the past.

I think the problem is that it's hard to separate out Palestine.  You're kind of caught in a loop whereby the Holocaust validates Israel and therefore Israel's right to defend her borders, and wanting the debate about the Holocaust to subside so you can debate Palestine, somehow makes you insensitive to it? 

I don't think anyone sane doesn't deplore what happened to the Jews and has a greatest respect for their entitlement to a homeland, but that has to remain a different issue to the present politics of the area, which it doesn't seem able to do.

[ohcheap1]

I see what you're saying ABC but on the same hand the museum is there to honor those fallen victims and what they stood for. War is such a catch 22 aint it?

[Geemonster]

Jews are killing Palestinians by the 100's

[redlandslide]

Israelis.

[AlienBC]

I think the problem is that it's hard to separate out Palestine.  You're kind of caught in a loop whereby the Holocaust validates Israel and therefore Israel's right to defend her borders, and wanting the debate about the Holocaust to subside so you can debate Palestine, somehow makes you insensitive to it? 

I don't think anyone sane doesn't deplore what happened to the Jews and has a greatest respect for their entitlement to a homeland, but that has to remain a different issue to the present politics of the area, which it doesn't seem able to do.

I researched this conflict years back looking for answers. No guessing who I found at the bottom of the pile of sh it yep the brits. I use to debate this with a passion on forums until frustration took over and I stopped. I?ve managed to suppress it for a few years now until this discussion started.  Forgive me if I came on a tad strong it?s year of suppression.  I do have sympathy for the plight of the Jews and yes they do have the right to defend their borders.  But that?s no excuse for them to inflict torture and persecution of another race.  How can you seek sympathy and respect when you?re doing the very same to others, and blightent with it too. This is my underlying problem........

[Geemonster]

Israelis.

Correct Israelis,sorry for my misquote.

[smokester]

I researched this conflict years back looking for answers. No guessing who I found at the bottom of the pile of sh it yep the brits.

Personally I lay the blame squarely at Truman's feet.  Not for recognising Israel, but for sanctioning a borderless State.

[Geemonster]

The blame rests with Lord Allenby for giving away land that wasn't ours to give in the 1st place.
   If it isn't the Yanks it's us. 

[smokester]

The blame rests with Lord Allenby for giving away land that wasn't ours to give in the 1st place.
   If it isn't the Yanks it's us. 

Can you elaborate a bit on that as I always thought Viscount Allenby was the one who defeated the Ottomans in the middle east after they had sided with Kaiser Wilhelm?

[goldshirt*9]

mmmmmmmmmm not sure of the name but it rings a bell about the british giving away the land though 

[smokester]

The area was actually 'won' whilst battling the Turks and was the precursor to the dissolution of the Ottoman empire (was that not a good thing?).  The land was then divvied up according to the mandate of the League of Nations and Britain was simply the administrator of it, however, the mandate was considered 'British' because of it. 

[AlienBC]

was it not the brits who put the oil on the fire in the first place?.....by orchestrating the revolt on the  Ottoman empire by promising the arabs the land that is now called Israel.......