Topic: bring them home

[goldshirt*9]

breaking news

"" Five British soldiers have been killed in a single incident in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, the Ministry of Defence has said.

Three of the soldiers were from the Grenadier Guards and two were from the Royal Military Police.

They had all been shot by a "rogue" Afghan policeman who had been part of a group they had been training in a compound, Lt Col David Wakefield said.

The soldiers' next of kin have been informed of the deaths.

The attack took place in the Nad-e'Ali district on Tuesday afternoon, the MoD said.

Lt Col Wakefield, spokesman for Task Force Helmand, said it was believed one Afghan policeman had begun shooting before fleeing the scene.  ""


i suport the troops to the end but its about time the government realised the whole country is a lost cause and bring ALL the troops home..

it makes my blood boil

[smokester]

Afghanistan has been the single cause of much of the misery in the world in recent history.  From the American intolerance of the Russians being there which then set rise to the extremists who plague the world today, to the unenviable task the allies now have of picking up the pieces in a country that refuses to be tamed.

I can understand the argument that if Afghanistan were left to its own devices, it may in time become a threat to world peace by becoming a breeding ground for the anti-west, but surely then it is education that it needs rather than being armed to the teeth?

[goldshirt*9]

does no one learn from their history that Afghanistan is corrupt.
also ungovernable from any out force.
time to come home.

[laama]

There will be much more blood and bodies before dumb politics and military leaders realized,that Afganistan should leave alone without trying force it to western living style.

[smokester]

I'm not sure what the Russians were doing there but I'm pretty sure the forces at present are trying to stem the growth of the Taliban by creating/imposing a democracy.  The problem is that the "islamists" were born out of the conflict to being with, and if anything, the war there has promoted their cause.

[Geemonster]

Send Gordon Brown and co to the bloody front,give em a gun,and let them sort it if they feel that strongly.

[Robin-Graves]

Send the ex tyrants Bush and Cheney too.
Bush said in an interview before he was "elected" the first time that his first act would be to go after Saddam Husein because,, and I quote " He tried to kill my daddy".
He laso made comments on US television that he wanted a legacy like his father, only bigger
Well, because America invaded Iraq ( ok,, what the hell did they have to do with 911?) the Islamic Extrremists gained momentum.
If anything can be learned by history, occupations DONT WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 The only thing 911 did was unite Americans to one cause,,to be AMERICANS.
Now,, before you herei n Europe go spare on me,, letme explain something that was going on Pre 911.
America was split into factions, we were tearing each other apart. People with short hair hated people with long hair, people with money hated the poor and the poor felt like they were being stepped upon by the rich.
Blacks hated whites, and whites hated everyone else.
We were being taken over by ilegal imigrants from Mexico and seeing them being givin what we had to work for.
ok,, so America was in social turmoil.
 911 happened, and that unfortunate even united all Americans to one cause,, being AMERICANS. One united people,, for about three days till politicians decided that thier phoney balogna cowpoo jobs were in danger.
Now ,, we have all the media bs about the Islamic " Terrorists" in our midst, and how they want us all dead.
Yeah,, nice propaganda  there.
Now we invade an inocent country and kill inocent people for thinking diferent from the west.
The islamic faith now has a great Satan,, and its us in America.
As long as America is fighting an illicit war for the wrong reasons,, there willbe trouble.
Afghanistan will allways be a rogue country, same as Iran.
Nothing we can do about it other than try and keep peacefull relations,,but the damage has been done.
We are talking about fighting against a populace that has been commiting the act of war against each other for thousands of years.
 Its their way of life,, its in their religion.
 The west has done its damage,, now we in the west have to deal with the monster we created.

[Skadi]

does no one learn from their history that Afghanistan is corrupt.

In any country that has an easy ability to make lots of money from drugs (ie opium poppies) fighting corruption is a losing battle. I wouldn't want people though stranded that need help.. But, there aren't many instances ever where I see war and violence as the answer...none to rare actually. I'd be pretty sure by this point though that the average person in Afghanistan just wants everyone out. It's hard to reason out what would work.

[Robin-Graves]

The mideast will never be atpeace , they have fought for thousands of years.
Even diferent ribes, at the best of times, will try to wipe each other out over something that happened thousands of years ago.
 The west doesnt understand their culture,, they are desert tribes that fought and killed each other over a pool of fresh water.

[Skadi]

The west doesnt understand their culture

^ also speaking from my little 5ft 8inch section of the 'west', I don't think we shold be mucking things up any worse either though by grubbing oil, and creating reasons for corrupt contractors like Halliburton to have to build and rebuild and 'rebuild' things there. The whole oil thing has the potential to ruin the fecking world someday. And in some ways it sort of has. It's worse then diamonds.. or drugs. The only bigger/equal future fight I can imagine is fights over water.

[Robin-Graves]

If America would reopen to wells in Western Oklahoma and West Texas, this wouldnt be happening.
We have more oil in America than they do,BUT,, Haliburton makes money over there .
AND,,if America would go back to a gold standard instead of an oilstandard,wemight see a better economy allthe way around.

[Skadi]

LOL we don't have a gold standard or an oil standard We might as well be trading things with money from a Monopoly game board >_<

Losing grip of gold holdings was utterly stupid.

[Geemonster]

Send the ex tyrants Bush and Cheney too.
Bush said in an interview before he was "elected" the first time that his first act would be to go after Saddam Husein because,, and I quote " He tried to kill my daddy".
He laso made comments on US television that he wanted a legacy like his father, only bigger
Well, because America invaded Iraq ( ok,, what the hell did they have to do with 911?) the Islamic Extrremists gained momentum.
If anything can be learned by history, occupations DONT WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 The only thing 911 did was unite Americans to one cause,,to be AMERICANS.
Now,, before you herei n Europe go spare on me,, letme explain something that was going on Pre 911.
America was split into factions, we were tearing each other apart. People with short hair hated people with long hair, people with money hated the poor and the poor felt like they were being stepped upon by the rich.
Blacks hated whites, and whites hated everyone else.
We were being taken over by ilegal imigrants from Mexico and seeing them being givin what we had to work for.
ok,, so America was in social turmoil.
 911 happened, and that unfortunate even united all Americans to one cause,, being AMERICANS. One united people,, for about three days till politicians decided that thier phoney balogna cowpoo jobs were in danger.
Now ,, we have all the media bs about the Islamic " Terrorists" in our midst, and how they want us all dead.
Yeah,, nice propaganda  there.
Now we invade an inocent country and kill inocent people for thinking diferent from the west.
The islamic faith now has a great Satan,, and its us in America.
As long as America is fighting an illicit war for the wrong reasons,, there willbe trouble.
Afghanistan will allways be a rogue country, same as Iran.
Nothing we can do about it other than try and keep peacefull relations,,but the damage has been done.
We are talking about fighting against a populace that has been commiting the act of war against each other for thousands of years.
 Its their way of life,, its in their religion.
 The west has done its damage,, now we in the west have to deal with the monster we created.

Very succinctly put.

[Robin-Graves]

LOL we don't have a gold standard or an oil standard We might as well be trading things with money from a Monopoly game board >_<

Losing grip of gold holdings was utterly stupid.

The stupidity started with the Bush/Cheney regime and continues with Obama .
He likes printing money that we cant back.
Do you see a corelation with pre WW2 Germany?
I do.

Very succinctly put.

Thank you,, i have my moments.

One thing this whole war reminds me of, is Russias involvememnt in Afghanistan back in the day.
We blasted them for doing what we are doing today.

[smokester]

The mideast will never be atpeace , they have fought for thousands of years.
Even diferent ribes, at the best of times, will try to wipe each other out over something that happened thousands of years ago.
 The west doesnt understand their culture,, they are desert tribes that fought and killed each other over a pool of fresh water.

Actually it was the West's "crusades" against the "infidel" that forced the middle east to have their first Jihad and the creation of the first "assassins". 

The middle east is where the first civilisation was born and has enriched the world by many ways, and at the time that the Turks and other warring nations were out and about fighting each other, European warlords made them look like amateurs.  If you are talking about the religious conflict between the Islamic factions - then they have only been around for 1500 years and if you look back 500 years in Christianity (given that it is 500 years older) there were many more factions killing each other at will.

[Robin-Graves]

True Smokester,, just trying to make a point that they will never have peace in that region.

My opinion is that its all an illicit war and we ,, nor anyone else for that matter, needs to be there.
Im an American, and im still for the life of me trying to figure out why the hell we were in this war to begin with.
 Iraq didnt cause 911,, we ignored the problem to the point that the Taliban ( if they did do it) have pretty much dug in like a tick.
IF they did it,, then maybe we should have gone after them first. But Bush/Cheney went after a diferent target for personal gain instead.
Its a fiasco,, and we are going to have another Viet Nam on hour hands.
 Maybe if the politicians sent their own children to die, it would have been a different story.

[Skadi]

The stupidity started with the Bush/Cheney regime and continues with Obama .
He likes printing money that we cant back.

Nixon took us off the gold standard in 1971. We can't exist on a fiat money system based on nothing to back it, and piling up reliance on credit killed us too. No matter who is president.. it wouldn't matter in some ways without something substantial like gold to back our money.

One thing this whole war reminds me of, is Russias involvememnt in Afghanistan back in the day.
We blasted them for doing what we are doing today.

Well.. even if it were totally different, it doesn't matter.. because after so many years the people in a country see the outsiders as occupiers. The original hows and whys get lost.

[goldshirt*9]

right so we all agree then .
get the troops out and send the politicians in 

my brother in law is about to be sent over again. he's been in every conflict for the last 23 years.
i worry for him.

my friend at works oldest son is across there now.
the story's he tells us are amazing scary.
he basically backs up the sas.
they have a very simple rule .no prisoners what / who so ever.( no matter what nationality they are  )

[Skadi]

my brother in law is about to be sent over again. he's been in every conflict for the last 23 years.
i worry for him.

>_<

that's unfathomable

[goldshirt*9]

   unfortunately he's very good at his job.

[laama]

  unfortunately he's very good at his job.

Professionals are under heavy pressure in Afganistan,so it's very risky business nowadays to go there.

[Robin-Graves]

Too bad we cant send profesional politicians

[Geemonster]

Too bad we cant send profesiona lpoliticians

Lets give a gun to Gordon Brown,Blair and Bush,send em to the front.

[Robin-Graves]

Your forgot Darth Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld

[Skadi]

  unfortunately he's very good at his job.

It's also interesting because he's someone with an on the ground up close perspective that's earned the right to an opinion of what's doable, what's not doable, and what the overall vibe of the whole environment is.

[Robin-Graves]

What are you saying? That somene that knowns what theyre saying is in charge of something there and not a politician?

If people that knew what they were doing were involved, maybe we ( America) would have went in with an exit stratagy.
And maybe this would have been over with long ago.
Afghanistan had a problem when we first went of telling us where we gould look and not look. Unfortunately, where they didnt want us to look was where Taliban troops were.
 We ( the west) are fighting this thing by using rules of the Geneva conveention, which was set in place for an organized army as an enemy. This is not an organized army as set forth by the rules in the Convention.
 As for cutting and running like many have suggested,,it cant be done, we have nowhere to run.
Due to the ineptitude of the ones in charge,, this is a hornets nest and HAS to be resolved for the safety of all.
 I hate the idea of a war,, too many inocent people get killed for a difference in ideology.
This is a religious war for them, and political for the west.
 If we dont win, or cut and run, politicians in the west will look bad ( Oh GOD forbid they look bad!).
I know in America, this thing is breaking us, Its costing 50 billion a year with no end in sight.
 
 The entire effect they wanted with 911 ( which I have my own opinions that are valid of what really went on) caused what they wanted to happen ,,it changed our ways of life and our out look on everything.

[goldshirt*9]

lets be fair ,Russia went in and they didnt fight with one hand tied  behind their back
they LOST .

no way can a western country can fight and win.
the tv shows all.

[laama]

lets be fair ,Russia went in and they didnt fight with one hand tied  behind their back
they LOST .

no way can a western country can fight and win.
the tv shows all.

Before Russians there was British army and they lost,and before them every army lost there sooner or later.

[smokester]

lets be fair ,Russia went in and they didnt fight with one hand tied  behind their back
they LOST .

no way can a western country can fight and win.
the tv shows all.

They lost because Bin Laden was and his mob were being trained by the Americans as freedom fighters.  The Russians had implored the US to help with an exit strategy but the US said there should be a complete and unconditional withdrawal by them otherwise they would continue to help the guerrillas - Russia had no choice.

The bullet in the foot for America was that the so called "freedom fighters" thought that they themselves had brought down the mighty Soviets and that it meant no power on earth was a match for them.  They then called themselves "Islamists" and decided to turn all the training the US had given them (mostly against counter-occupation which is what they are evidently so good at these days) and turn it against the US itself, it is argued that the plot to bring down the World Trade center was born shortly after all of this.

[Robin-Graves]

Like I said, we created a monster, we have to deal with it.

[smokester]

Like I said, we created a monster, we have to deal with it.

It wasn't be accident Robin, America has to have an 'enemy' and so it has created them periodically throughout its history.  The communist witch-hunt had all but run it's course and the cold-war was start to get a little warmer what with all the reforms in Russia, so now the U.S has created another 'enemy' that it can battle away at endlessly for a good few years, and when that wears out it always has China waiting in the wings to wrestle with.

[Robin-Graves]

yeah,,we kinda pissed in our own boots back when "Tricky richard" Richard Nixxon declared the so called "War On Drugs" when we were in Viet Nam.
It was all set up to declare war on ourselves to get out minds off of an illicit war in Asia.
Now that the so called War On Drugs was seen for what it was,, we needed to have someone to bame for the ills of the world.
 I dont support the govornments involvement in this kind of thing, in fact, about 80% of Americans disaprove of what out govornemnt is doing.
They are making people like me hated throughout the world.
Thanks to Bush/Cheney,, people like me have to be carefull when we talk to people like, Gee, Indie, Landslide etc because of the bad press we get.
 None of us wanted this war, non approved, and all want it overwith.
Ive read the philosophy that every great society needs an enemy to thrive.
 If thats true,, what are we going to do with the Mideast?
We just gave them their Great Satan.
Its stupid.
We trained these people to fight for us, and now they are against us.
This is just another example of someone having a vicious dog. Either treat it well, or it will turn on you.

[smokester]

The notion that America has to remain armed to the teeth is one that I have to be supported my most Americans I have talked to, in fact, it is almost an extention of "The right the bear arms".  But to legitimise that you must have an enemy otherwise you'd be better spending all those billions on healthcare (perish the thought) or lifting people out of poverty.

That said, I would imagine the American people would much rather your military might was used more for peacekeeping rather than fighting an endless procession of would be Cardassians, which could even be classed as a good thing even by the Anti-war lobbyists.  I think that when China overtakes the U.S as a superpower, America will find itself at a rather interesting crossroads.

[Skadi]

The notion that America has to remain armed to the teeth is one that I have to be supported my most Americans I have talked to 

I heard a quote last night by someone who should be a reputable source that 75% of American youth that are of age to enter the military are classified as 'unfit to serve'. So, with dwindling money, and dwindling reinforcements, the US won't really have a choice in the future. They'll have to start realigning their modus operandi.

[Robin-Graves]

Weve been teetering on the brink of a crossroads for a long time.
The whole China thing is no mistake. Ive studied the situation for months and its come to this: China is rich now because of the US. China is also the only millitary might that CAN overtake American forces ( by sheer numbers) and the only economy that will devestate American making it a third world nation. Now,, having said that, I can explain the almost hidden agenda America has.
China bought alot of our debt,, plus they have favored nation status when it comes to trade with Ameica ( nearly all our finished goods come from China).
 When ( not if,, but WHEN) China decides to pull something and go against America, America will refuse to pay any and all debts to China ( they bought alot f our debts,, and our T Bills) but America will also refuse to buy anymore of their goods. America is the biggest buyer of Chinese goods in the world.
 This will disable China to point of crppling them for decades to come.
This is the setup for another economic war ( much like what the North did to the South in the American civil war in many respects).
As for being armed to the teath,, I have to agree with you part way.
Yes, there are too many handguns in America. A handgun is good for one thing,,killing people.  Not to mention most gun crimes are commited using handguns. Mainly by people that are crminal element anyway ( gang members, organized crime, drug related criminals etc.
 I have had handguns,, but they were left to me when my father passed away ( with the excepton of the .45 I had for home defense).
Before that aguement starts,, let me just say that  I had a couple armed asailants come in on me several years ago and hold me at gunpoint while they took what the pleased from my home, pistol whipped me and left me unconcious on the kitchen floor.
The police never found them.
I refused to have it happen again.
Now,, I am a big advocate for the rights of gun owners, BUT im also an advocate for gun control.
 Most of the gun owners in my area are farmers and hunters, and we use long guns ( rifles).
We can agree to disagree on that point, but America is a very millitant country in alot of respects. ( not that I buy that philosphy,, im actualy a very peacefull person in real life and wish to be left alone most of the time).
 But as far as Americans in general wanting the war,, thats a misnomener,, Americans in general are struggling . The 50 billion a year that the govornment is spending can go for so many other things,, like reducing poverty ( god forbid that happenes, poor get a little ahead and the wealthy wont be as wealthy as they once were!).
The American govornemnt sold its sould to ersonal interest groups, corporations and who can get a vote from what sector of society.
 The war at the time was a popular notion,, but only as far as you wanting to hit a neighbor with a cricket bat for having a barking dog.
 Too many have been killed for Bush/Cheney and thier personal monetary gains.
One life, beit theirs or ours is too much.
If you notice,,no one that is wealthy, or a politicians child is in harms way.
That ought to tell you something.
hey wanted us to believe that Akmed was comming to our house to rape our kids, kill our wife, and make us watch as they did it screaming Allah Ackbar.
 It was rediculous,, and everyone saw through it .
As for 911? I have a few thigs to say about that later on if this thread goes that direction.

I heard a quote last night by someone who should be a reputable source that 75% of American youth that are of age to enter the military are classified as 'unfit to serve'. So, with dwindling money, and dwindling reinforcements, the US won't really have a choice in the future. They'll have to start realigning their modus operandi.

Who was the reputable source?
I got to say he is pretty much wrong in alot of the cases unless its a cirtain branch of the military, or cirtain Millitary Ocupational Services.
 To get into the Army or Maines, you have to score relly not that high on the ASVAB test.
For the Airforce or Navy,, the scoring is pretty high to get in,, but they are more technical banches.
 As for physical requirements,, its actualy pretty low,, 3.5 miles to be an in 18 minutes,, a man in a wheelchair can do that.


BTW,, dont judge me by what you hear about Americans,, I think alot of you can attest im not you "Typical American".  And many I do know in America think alot like I do. Most of us just want to be left alone so we can live our lives the best we can.

 

[smokester]

I was using "The right to bear arms" as a metaphor for the need to be a military superpower.

China is an economic giant in its own right and has already quite openly stolen all the top secret weapon schematics from America (remember that in the news?), so they are not worried about either financial or more aggressive moves by any other nation.  The problem is that it is America that is accused of setting up strategic bases encircling China that could lead to confrontation in the future - it is not the other way round.  That said, China may well yet help the allies with an exit strategy in Afganistan (see how I got that back on topic..), then we can all have a kiss and a cuddle until another Bush gets back in power..

[Skadi]

Who was the reputable source?
I got to say he is pretty much wrong in alot of the cases unless its a cirtain branch of the military, or cirtain Millitary Ocupational Services.

^ He was a high ranking general.

And if you think of it, he's right. Because we're overstretched we've depleted our ready forces. And a large majority of kids in late teens are out of shape (as in drastically, and or overweight), or drug or alcohol dependent,  have a history of violent crime, have been diagnose with deprsession or add etc that have them on meds.. possibly can't read.. or, might admit to being openly gay or bisexual. If we had a flat out draft they might have to get more picky. But, the elite of the elite that could go into combat training is dwindling. And, we have a different type of population then we did in the 1940's.

[Robin-Graves]

I was using "The right to bear arms" as a metaphor for the need to be a military superpower.

China is an economic giant in its own right and has already quite openly stolen all the top secret weapon schematics from America (remember that in the news?), so they are not worried about either financial or more aggressive moves by any other nation.  The problem is that it is America that is accused of setting up strategic bases encircling China that could lead to confrontation in the future - it is not the other way round.  That said, China may well yet help the allies with an exit strategy in Afganistan (see how I got that back on topic..), then we can all have a kiss and a cuddle until another Bush gets back in power..

Good way of getting back on topic Smokey lol.
Sorry,, felt a little defensive there for a bit,,still used to being bashed for being American lmao. ( sorry for the paranoia,,bad incidentin another forum a while back)

^ He was a high ranking general.

And if you think of it, he's right. Because we're overstretched we've depleted our ready forces. And a large majority of kids in late teens are out of shape (as in drastically, and or overweight), or drug or alcohol dependent,  have a history of violent crime, have been diagnose with deprsession or add etc that have them on meds.. possibly can't read.. or, might admit to being openly gay or bisexual. If we had a flat out draft they might have to get more picky. But, the elite of the elite that could go into combat training is dwindling. And, we have a different type of population then we did in the 1940's.

As for that information,, I did not know who said it. Ive been out of touch wth CNN and things for a bit.
 BUT,,, the same can almost be said with the Viet Nam era.
My father was present when several new recrutes in 1969 were told that they were drafted to go to Viet Nam to die because America needed to be cleaned up.
 As for the exit strategy,, Bush/Cheney jumped the gun thinking they were going to make alot of money when we went to war ( which they did). And the longer we are at war, the more money cirtin constituants they had make off of it.
Its good old fashion capatalist war profiteering.
 We are in this for one reason,,greed. America doesnt need to buy oil from the Mideast, they fail t tell you tht in 1982 Ronald Reagan ordered the capping off of wells in one of the biggest oil areas ( the Anadarko Basin) for unknown reasons.
Even oil companies said that we had enough oil there to last a couple centuries at curent rate of expansion.
 If you research it far enough, right after Saddam was taken out of power, an oil pipeline was built accross part od Iraq. Not to mention he was wanting to switch to the Euro which would have made it horder on America economicaly.
 I still have this confusion though why we have to bring democracy to a region of the world that just plain doesnt want it.