Author Topic: Harvey w  (Read 3046 times)

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Offline smokester

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Re: Harvey w
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2017, 02:00:15 AM »
Thought experiment:

You know a barmaid in the pub, and you drink there after hours for years. You often "touch" as part of normal social interaction - arm round shoulders, touch knee while telling a joke sat at the table, maybe even (heaven forfend) a peck on the cheek before you/she go home (independently of course).

She comes to work for you.

Now what do you do? Stop all of the above so she may get the impression that "he thinks he is too good for me now" (belittling and therefore emotionally abusing her), or continue, when you are now in the creepy position of "manhandling her while you are the boss" (physically abusing her).

The point is that the position of power makes abuse - by the current definitions - impossible to avoid.

How do you avoid the potential accusation that you are abusing her in either instance? ... and you are a very rare human if you completely resist all temptation to take advantage of the possibilities that your position bestow upon you. The ability to totally resist temptation is granted to very few of us.

This is completely distinct (in my mind) from Weinstein-style abuse, but the current vogue for outing all "abusers" has blurred the distinction into non-existence.

Personally, if I've ever liked a woman romantically, I make damn sure beforehand that there's a possibility that things could develop. I usually do this the old fashioned way by asking her friends whether I am in with a chance. Otherwise I'd treat barmaids like barmen. And barmen like barmaids for that matter.

Flirtation is one thing and is not gender specific, sexual harassment is different and is all that you say. But there is a distinction between the two.

The other thing is that it is true that people in power believe themselves to be above the law and untouchable and can abuse that power by bullying others, but in my experience they are in the vast minority of those with said power. In cases where this is more widespread it is usually institutionalised abuse whereby the individuals are taught/instructed to behave that way - like Nazis and the police of old - but that behaviour does not always sit well with those within the institution, Oskar Schindler for example.

Anywho, I'm late for work.
Don't put off until tomorrow, what you can put off until the day after.

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Offline goldshirt*9

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Re: Harvey w
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2017, 12:32:12 AM »
I was attempting to point out that there is a difference between flirtation and harassment, but that no-one knows where it is: this position is made infinitely more of an issue when there is a power disparity between the parties.

In their position. if they didn't know the difference between flirtation and harassment then they deserve all they get.
They preyed upon the persons desire to become or stay an actress in a cut throat business.

but that no-one knows where it is: this position is made infinitely more of an issue when there is a power disparity between the parties.

this is so true

As Dr. Stephen Maturin said to Capt. Jack Aubrey "power corrupts" , luckily not all people act this way

Offline smokester

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Re: Harvey w
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2017, 04:18:45 AM »
I wasn't aiming at that particularly, I was attempting to point out that there is a difference between flirtation and harassment, but that no-one knows where it is: this position is made infinitely more of an issue when there is a power disparity between the parties.

Related topic: I watch social interactions at work all the time (I participate in some of them). Watching two guys sat at a conference table will often involve pats on backs, punches to arms, arms round shoulders. That is not possible when one of the attendees is female, particularly if one of the people in the room is a boss, and is therefore in a position of power. It really isn't possible, and the current "solution" appears to be stopping a group of men (or women) acting as their nature demands, because if the group dynamic were different, that behaviour would be unacceptable. (Hence men shouldn't tell each other dirty jokes, shouldn't indulge in "locker-room banter", shouldn't - really - act as a group of men because if they do it is exclusive of women: it sets a precedent that cannot be met - change out one of the men for a woman and the dynamic unavoidably changes)

What I'm getting at, really, is that aspiring to be better (any or all of: bigger, stronger, brighter, better looking, more attractive, better dressed, better liked, richer, etc., etc., etc.) is part of the human condition, and using any "power" that is obtained is a natural consequence: the ability to use power is one of the prime reasons (maybe at bottom the only reason) for seeking to obtain it. Having that power used on you is unpleasant, and is currently defined as "abuse".

^ Just quoting you for posterity and not directly responding to your post.

In my opinion this whole "power corrupts" is not the issue here. Corruption is something completely different to an over exaggerated sense of self-importance. The the real issue is those who believe they have the right to sexually harass those less important to them as they are subordinates. It may well be a primitive instinct as it certainly happens throughout the animal kingdom, yet few lesser life forms tend to embezzle coconuts or whatever.

Anywho, I'm very late for work and the boss is an aggressive and unforgiving - not to mention tyrannically dogmatic - son of a madam.
Don't put off until tomorrow, what you can put off until the day after.

There is an exception to every rule, apart from this one.

Offline 6pairsofshoes

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Re: Harvey w
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2017, 10:38:46 AM »
I wasn't aiming at that particularly, I was attempting to point out that there is a difference between flirtation and harassment, but that no-one knows where it is: this position is made infinitely more of an issue when there is a power disparity between the parties.
... using any "power" that is obtained is a natural consequence: the ability to use power is one of the prime reasons (maybe at bottom the only reason) for seeking to obtain it. Having that power used on you is unpleasant, and is currently defined as "abuse".

There is no question that there are muddy areas between flirtation and harassment.  The problem comes in when one must draw hard clear lines, as would be required of any kind of juridical situation.  The latter may strike  you as arbitrary, but I'd argue that it's well nigh impossible to do otherwise.  The subjectivity involved in such draftsmanship is thicker than a custard.

As for the second point?  It seems a bit of an overgeneralization, one that throws the baby out with the bathwater.  There are enlightened and then despotic exercises of power.  Not all fit the characteristic of abuse, simply because such power is wielded upon subordinates.  The problem comes when the exercise is solely to satisfy the will of the wielder to the clear detriment of the subordinate.  There's plenty of unambiguous examples of such abuse that have little to nothing to do with sex.

Offline goldshirt*9

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Re: Harvey w
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2017, 04:44:26 AM »
In my opinion this whole "power corrupts" is not the issue here.
If Harvey and co were janitors then would this have happened, I think not 8)
Due to the position / power he thought he could get away with it.
But hey ho we will see what happens.
Even Dustin is now involved

Offline mishca09

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Re: Harvey w
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2017, 07:52:05 AM »
Netflix has dropped Kevin spacey

Weinstein may be arrested by the nypd...but it's unlikely ... people are waiting for this to die down. I guess we'll see if it does.

Offline goldshirt*9

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Re: Harvey w
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2017, 08:16:26 AM »
The show just go's on and on.

Offline goldshirt*9

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Re: Harvey w
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2017, 12:12:13 PM »
George Bush Snr 'groped 16-year-old girl' during 2003 photo op
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41974116
"A Bush spokesman has previously acknowledged he has touched several women on the rear"

 ;D ;D ;D ;D