Author Topic: Local News  (Read 14650 times)

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Offline Alfonz

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Re: Local News
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2017, 08:33:56 AM »
Very sad   :(

Offline dweez

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Re: Local News
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2017, 08:59:37 PM »
What is going on in this world?
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Offline 6pairsofshoes

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Re: Local News
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2017, 10:27:14 PM »
I am so saddened and shocked by the Grenfell fire I don't even know what to say.  I hope that they get to the bottom of this.  Poor people warehoused in an unsafe structure.  Where the hell were the safe fire exits?  It makes me stupid to think of how anyone could allow human beings to inhabit such a building.

Offline smokester

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Re: Local News
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2017, 12:43:54 PM »
I learnt today that one of the guys I work with lost family in the Grenfell Tower fire, and I present client of mine also has a friends
 who is "missing".

I have seen this cladding system used on many buildings in one form or another, and I have often wondered how it would react in a fire. Let's not forget that this is only a re-run of the Melbourne blaze in 2014 that used the same cladding, and a subsequent investigation found that this material did not comply with Australian regulations. Australian building regulations are tougher than the UK's, but i doubt that this insulation system was suitable for a high rise building due to the chimney effect that it created.

Cruelly ironic that I have been chiming on about how regulation does not allow for common sense. This is the sole reason for this fire as without the cladding I doubt there would have been a single fatality.

It makes me sick to my stomach.
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Offline goldshirt*9

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Re: Local News
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2017, 07:47:01 AM »
so sad, and with the gov stating today the cladding fails reg's.
 I wouldn't like to be in any  the companies people who agreed to use / sign off the work and deals.

Offline smokester

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Re: Local News
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2017, 03:40:57 PM »
As I understand what has been reported so far, no-one has said that it fails regulations: in fact it passes all of the UK and Europe's requirements.

On the other hand, it catches fire, so it patently obviously isn't fit for purpose.

Sort of bring s the whole regulatory framework into question for me: what is the point of having rules about what you can use, if the rules allow (and therefore encourage) you to use stuff that will kill people in numerous different ways when you use it?

Like I've said, in the world of construction, regulation negates common sense.

What's worse is that fire regulations are some of the most dangerously ill advised load of garbage that ever existed.

I'll give you another example: I live in a housing association property and fire regulations insist that we have a door closer on our front door. This closer was so strong that it made the door so hard to open that my (at the time) 10 year old daughter couldn't budge it at all. If there was a fire that rendered the other 3 of us unconscious, she'd have died due to this "safety" measure.

Luckily, I own both a screwdriver and a bin.
Don't put off until tomorrow, what you can put off until the day after.

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Offline goldshirt*9

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Re: Local News
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2017, 08:09:52 AM »
common sense or price, big business, smaller cost and bigger profit plus i imagine a few back handers

Offline goldshirt*9

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Re: Local News
« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2017, 09:40:23 AM »
Which is precisely why the regulation is so important. Business can't be trusted to "do the right thing", it can only be trusted to "do the most profitable thing". We know and accept this, but the "thing" that they do must be legal. If the law is wrong/ inadequate, accidents happen.
So agree
Big companies "common sense" would be to use anything and be more successful so paying the Shareholders more profit. its how the market works even if you agree or not.
Unfortunate that this incident was and sad, there have been much worse incidents where costs were cut to maximise profit and the owners just walked away.


It is not possible for the government/ council/ homeowner/ contractor/ fitter - or even inspector - to thoroughly test all materials they use, they rely on the legislative framework, and then often use the cheapest legal material. If that certified legal material is flammable/ poisonous it is hardly their fault.

History proves this right remember Asbestos, legally ok to use and heralded at the best thing since sliced bread and then we learn more about it  :( :(

Offline smokester

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Re: Local News
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2017, 04:01:58 PM »
Even though I'm not entirely sure what christ said as I can only piece together an idea from goldie's post, I don't agree with him. Believe it or not, it is entirely possible to test all the materials for use, in fact, they have all been thoroughly tested. The problem lies with what decisions are made once the tests have been carried out, and this is where common sense leaves the building.

I can't stress enough that the Grenfell Tower was a wholly fire safe building made unsafe by cladding that an idiot would have seen was completely improper. "Regulation" legitimised this regardless of how many idiots may have pointed out that the cladding was more than a little suspect.

I'm an idiot that has reported breaches in H&S that range from disregarding non encapsulated asbestos in  a cafe, to dangerous, Gerry rigged electrics by unqualified personnel. Local authorities have proved not to give a poo - and give it six months, and they won't give a poo all over again.
Don't put off until tomorrow, what you can put off until the day after.

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Offline dweez

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Re: Local News
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2017, 08:59:51 AM »
There is huge difference between what one ethical person, or a small ethical company, can and will do and what a profit-driven large-to-huge corporation will do. For the purposes of this argument "cost-saving" and "profit-driven" amount to the same thing, and "council" and "corporation" are interchangeable. Common sense has no place in corporate affairs: minimum standards that meet legal requirements are driving the bus.

It may be possible for the end-user to test all the materials for use. I doubt it - I have worked for decades in testing and it is a specialised sport, not something to be undertaken lightly by someone whose expertise is elsewhere: I am reminded of the match tester: "yes, this one worked" tells you nothing about the next one: the testing has to be interwoven with the manufacture (particularly with complex components such as cladding: how can you tell that the glue used in the manufacture of all the sheets that you bought is identical in composition and quantity to the glue in the sample(s) that you tested?), and this is not something that can be done even by the ethical workman. ... but putting that all aside, and assuming that it is possible, it is not cost-effective: relying on the (supposed) fact that someone else has done the testing is the norm - and is encouraged so to be.

It may well be common sense that you shouldn't use something flammable to stop a fire, but if the legal framework says that a particular component is OK (even if it is cheap), then how would you know otherwise? The fact that you can set fire to something in your backyard doesn't mean that it is inappropriately flammable under normal usage conditions - even in extreme conditions. Obviously people did the work, and I daresay it is possible that some of them complained, and I would even go so far as to say that some people may have given up or lost their jobs as a result of this protest, but

1) in general terms doing inappropriate but legal work that keeps bread on the table trumps common sense and ethics just about every time, but
2) it is probable that no-one working on the tower block cladding really thought - at the time - that they were making the building unsafer. Hindsight is, of course, a wonderful thing, and I wouldn't be greatly surprised if all the people that worked on the job now come forward one at a time to tell the world how worried they were at the time, and how inappropriate the materials, the bosses, and most of all the robbing bastards in the council were: but hindsight is often coloured by experience, and has a modifying effect on one's memory.

If everyone in the council was following the rules, and the materials used were certified as appropriate, then the legal testing regime is at fault.

Of course if anyone used materials that were not certified as appropriate, then everyone involved in that usage should be hung out to dry.

Quoted for posterity as I think this is the most I've every seen christ say in one post.
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Offline smokester

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Re: Local News
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2017, 12:53:48 PM »
There is huge difference between what.......

Look, this cladding was the cause of an identical fire 3 years ago in Melbourne. The autopsy of that event showed that this exact same cladding did not meet safety regulations and you would have thought that this testing would have been sufficient evidence to stop its use here.

It also does not meet fire regulations here.

I can tell you that (regardless of what the modern day regulation making geeks would like to say) there is nothing particularly complicated about what is safe and what isn't. I was taught while working for Brent health and safety that you had to use common sense first. This is because there can be things that breach regulation but are not causing any particular risk (and so advice is the best course of action rather than a penalty), and there can be things that are not breaching regulation that could pose a substantial risk and should be treated more aggressively.

There are a lot of flammable materials use in construction - America has more than a couple of timber buildings - but when these materials are used you have to modify procedures to account for the risk. There is no way that the cladding used on Grenfell meant that the same fire safety procedures should have stayed in place. Of course a sprinkler system would have helped, but the instruction should have been altered to evacuation rather than staying in your flat. This latter advice probably quadrupled the death toll.

We are not talking about string theory, we are talking about combustible panels being glued onto fire resistant concrete. How much testing is actually required here if you don't have access to the internet?

The whole thing is madness. Last week I had to fire proof an RSJ I installed to comply with regulation. Have you ever tried setting light to an RSJ?

Before and after:




Don't put off until tomorrow, what you can put off until the day after.

There is an exception to every rule, apart from this one.

Offline 8ullfrog

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Re: Local News
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2017, 11:40:37 PM »
How is that cladding still on market? Seems like the manufacturer needs some takata level attention.
just one little time change so a draft board in 1968 turns down the bribe to accept "bone spurs" and we are home-free.

Offline goldshirt*9

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Re: Local News
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2017, 12:33:54 AM »
Last week I had to fire proof an RSJ I installed to comply with regulation. Have you ever tried setting light to an RSJ?

Before and after:





that brings back memories of when I had my extension, failed at the first inspection for the RsJ not being fire proofed, yet didn't want to check if the extractor in the bathroom actually worked ???


Offline smokester

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Re: Local News
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2017, 04:15:06 PM »
that brings back memories of when I had my extension, failed at the first inspection for the RsJ not being fire proofed, yet didn't want to check if the extractor in the bathroom actually worked ???

My BCO was a real tosser. He made me make 2 other things regulation that weren't in my brief. When it got to the point where he was questioning every little spot on the site, I just told him what he wanted to hear. He was asking me questions that just could not be true, and if you knew anything of the trade you'd have known that already, but I just said he was right in his findings and he looked pleased he'd discovered the truth. Totally bless'ed clueless.

When he was preaching to me I started asking whether he wanted it this way or that way as both approaches complied with regulation, and he just looked at me blankly and said he'd research it and call.

Totally bless'ed clueless (have I said that already).

In the Grenfell tower incident, I believe the contractors are the main ones to blame. They probably did what I did and sold it to the people in authority. The people in authority were probably as clueless and my BCO and ergo, a fire safe building is made into a fast burning candle.
Don't put off until tomorrow, what you can put off until the day after.

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Offline goldshirt*9

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Re: Local News
« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2017, 12:23:15 AM »
Not quite local but who are the G20 protesters, some are just rent a mob