Author Topic: "non-human" persons?  (Read 15974 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Robin-Graves

  • Rev AJ's Grand Inquisitor
  • Homo Superior
  • *
  • Posts: 4278
  • Gender: Male
  • Power doesnt give you the right
"non-human" persons?
« on: January 06, 2010, 08:15:08 AM »
Dolphins have been declared the world?s second most intelligent creatures after humans, with scientists suggesting they are so bright that they should be treated as ?non-human persons?.

Studies into dolphin behaviour have highlighted how similar their communications are to those of humans and that they are brighter than chimpanzees. These have been backed up by anatomical research showing that dolphin brains have many key features associated with high intelligence.

The researchers argue that their work shows it is morally unacceptable to keep such intelligent animals in amusement parks or to kill them for food or by accident when fishing. Some 300,000 whales, dolphins and porpoises die in this way each year.

?Many dolphin brains are larger than our own and second in mass only to the human brain when corrected for body size,? said Lori Marino, a zoologist at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, who has used magnetic resonance imaging scans to map the brains of dolphin species and compare them with those of primates.

Related Internet Links
Fight Club Live: Animal Experimentation
Related Links
Dolphins not so friendly when catching salmon
Swimmers warned as dolphin 'turns bad'
?The neuroanatomy suggests psychological continuity between humans and dolphins and has profound implications for the ethics of human-dolphin interactions,? she added.

Dolphins have long been recognised as among the most intelligent of animals but many researchers had placed them below chimps, which some studies have found can reach the intelligence levels of three-year-old children. Recently, however, a series of behavioural studies has suggested that dolphins, especially species such as the bottlenose, could be the brighter of the two. The studies show how dolphins have distinct personalities, a strong sense of self and can think about the future.

It has also become clear that they are ?cultural? animals, meaning that new types of behaviour can quickly be picked up by one dolphin from another.

In one study, Diana Reiss, professor of psychology at Hunter College, City University of New York, showed that bottlenose dolphins could recognise themselves in a mirror and use it to inspect various parts of their bodies, an ability that had been thought limited to humans and great apes.

In another, she found that captive animals also had the ability to learn a rudimentary symbol-based language.

Other research has shown dolphins can solve difficult problems, while those living in the wild co-operate in ways that imply complex social structures and a high level of emotional sophistication.

In one recent case, a dolphin rescued from the wild was taught to tail-walk while recuperating for three weeks in a dolphinarium in Australia.

After she was released, scientists were astonished to see the trick spreading among wild dolphins who had learnt it from the former captive.

There are many similar examples, such as the way dolphins living off Western Australia learnt to hold sponges over their snouts to protect themselves when searching for spiny fish on the ocean floor.

Such observations, along with others showing, for example, how dolphins could co-operate with military precision to round up shoals of fish to eat, have prompted questions about the brain structures that must underlie them.

Size is only one factor. Researchers have found that brain size varies hugely from around 7oz for smaller cetacean species such as the Ganges River dolphin to more than 19lb for sperm whales, whose brains are the largest on the planet. Human brains, by contrast, range from 2lb-4lb, while a chimp?s brain is about 12oz.

When it comes to intelligence, however, brain size is less important than its size relative to the body.

What Marino and her colleagues found was that the cerebral cortex and neocortex of bottlenose dolphins were so large that ?the anatomical ratios that assess cognitive capacity place it second only to the human brain?. They also found that the brain cortex of dolphins such as the bottlenose had the same convoluted folds that are strongly linked with human intelligence.

Such folds increase the volume of the cortex and the ability of brain cells to interconnect with each other. ?Despite evolving along a different neuroanatomical trajectory to humans, cetacean brains have several features that are correlated with complex intelligence,? Marino said.

Marino and Reiss will present their findings at a conference in San Diego, California, next month, concluding that the new evidence about dolphin intelligence makes it morally repugnant to mistreat them.

Thomas White, professor of ethics at Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles, who has written a series of academic studies suggesting dolphins should have rights, will speak at the same conference.

?The scientific research . . . suggests that dolphins are ?non-human persons? who qualify for moral standing as individuals,? he says.




I read a sci fi novel where this happened once.

An alien species came and wanted to speak with a representative of Earth. The spoke to a dolphin.
I keep my standards low.
That way im never disapointed.

Offline redlandslide

  • Site Moderator
  • Super Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 5328
  • Gender: Male
  • "We want a shrubbery!"
Re: "non-human" persons?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2010, 08:39:23 AM »
The studies show how dolphins have distinct personalities, a strong sense of self and can think about the future.

Like planning their holidays? It's hard to think what a dolphin can see in it's future besides swimming and eating fish.

I read a sci fi novel where this happened once.

An alien species came and wanted to speak with a representative of Earth. The spoke to a dolphin.

And let's not forget the Simpsons episode where they tried to take over the world.  >:(

I don't trust dolphins, with those smirks on their faces. Give them an inch and they'll take a nautical mile.


Offline Robin-Graves

  • Rev AJ's Grand Inquisitor
  • Homo Superior
  • *
  • Posts: 4278
  • Gender: Male
  • Power doesnt give you the right
Re: "non-human" persons?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2010, 09:04:29 AM »
No kidding.

Theyre wanting to take them out of Sea World since they are now conidered sentient beings.

Next theyll be giving our jobs to Dolphins.
I keep my standards low.
That way im never disapointed.

Offline smokester

  • Administrator
  • Q
  • *
  • Posts: 15833
  • Gender: Male
  • Da mihi castitatem et continentiam, sed noli modo!
Re: "non-human" persons?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2010, 09:13:33 AM »
I watched the debate about "Human rights" for Dolphins this on the Wright stuff this morning and I was surprised and delighted to find out the Spain had already extended Human-rights to the Great Apes. I am of the ilk that all animals, even humans, have the birthright of not being tortured thoughout their lives.

Funny thing about the Dolphin debate is whenever I have been in the Caribbean, I have seen people endlessly being caught out when the see Dolphin on restaurant menus.  I have seen people so incensed that they have called for the manager and let loose a tirade of insults and condemnation only to find out that "Dolphin" is another name for the "Dorado" (Mahi-mahi) which is actually a rather tasty fish.  It does go to show though that the common man does feel somewhat different about Dolphins as I have never seen someone order that on the menu there until it had been explained.
Don't put off until tomorrow, what you can put off until the day after.

There is an exception to every rule, apart from this one.

Offline Robin-Graves

  • Rev AJ's Grand Inquisitor
  • Homo Superior
  • *
  • Posts: 4278
  • Gender: Male
  • Power doesnt give you the right
Re: "non-human" persons?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2010, 09:18:22 AM »
I know here in America there was a big debate about tuna canaries actualy having dolphin is thier tuna.
I never thought it might be Dorado.
We had Dorado when I was on Midway Island for a while.
Benida is good too.

Now, as for the dolphin debate,, Im all for them having rights, along with every other animal.
What Im afaid of is that food animals are going to have extended rights some day.
That happens and say goodby to the steak and kidney pie i like so much.
I keep my standards low.
That way im never disapointed.

Offline smokester

  • Administrator
  • Q
  • *
  • Posts: 15833
  • Gender: Male
  • Da mihi castitatem et continentiam, sed noli modo!
Re: "non-human" persons?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2010, 09:42:39 AM »
There is nothing wrong with livestock agriculture but there is with intensive farming and the ill treatment of the animals (this is actually the reason I am vegetarian).  As for extending "Human rights": I personally don't think there should be a set of rules that say it ok to torture one animal because it isn't as bright as a Dolphin, as there are a few celebrities I could mention that wouldn't even match up to the intellect of a single cell amoeba.
Don't put off until tomorrow, what you can put off until the day after.

There is an exception to every rule, apart from this one.

Offline Robin-Graves

  • Rev AJ's Grand Inquisitor
  • Homo Superior
  • *
  • Posts: 4278
  • Gender: Male
  • Power doesnt give you the right
Re: "non-human" persons?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2010, 10:56:24 AM »
Exactly,,look at Paris Hilton.lol
Personaly, Im an advocate for animals rights. I dont believe in killing anything out of turn.
Just because an ant colony is a nuisance doesnt mean its ok to torture an ant with a magnifying glass.
One thing I DO have to say in favor of Non Human Persons, is that its about time we, as the Human race, got over the arogance that we are the only inteligent species on the planet.
 How would we feel if dolphins hunted us because we didnt think on the same level they did?
I keep my standards low.
That way im never disapointed.

Offline smokester

  • Administrator
  • Q
  • *
  • Posts: 15833
  • Gender: Male
  • Da mihi castitatem et continentiam, sed noli modo!
Re: "non-human" persons?
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2010, 01:10:35 PM »
Exactly,,look at Paris Hilton.lol
Personaly, Im an advocate for animals rights. I dont believe in killing anything out of turn.
Just because an ant colony is a nuisance doesnt mean its ok to torture an ant with a magnifying glass.
One thing I DO have to say in favor of Non Human Persons, is that its about time we, as the Human race, got over the arogance that we are the only inteligent species on the planet.
 How would we feel if dolphins hunted us because we didnt think on the same level they did?

I have quite seriously had the argument with people that advocate the widespread extermination of certain species of animal, that if aliens were to land here (it would follow that they were superior in intelligence and technology), would they then concede that it the aliens had the right to exterminate us simply because we couldn't compete?

I would kill any animal/thing in self-defence and I would hunt kittens if I were starving, but I am a member of NAVS and even relocate the housemice I catch rather then doing away with them - well in truth I relocate them to Clapham common where they will undoubtedly become fox food, but that's their fault for not paying attention in their Mouse-Ninja classes.
Don't put off until tomorrow, what you can put off until the day after.

There is an exception to every rule, apart from this one.

Offline redlandslide

  • Site Moderator
  • Super Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 5328
  • Gender: Male
  • "We want a shrubbery!"
Re: "non-human" persons?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2010, 02:16:57 PM »
I would hunt kittens if I were starving

What hunting skills would one need to capture the mighty kitten?

I'm guessing the ability to roll a ball of wool would probably suffice.

Offline JackFrost

  • Super Hero
  • *******
  • Posts: 6001
  • Gender: Male
  • I've seen the future. I can't afford it.
Re: "non-human" persons?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2010, 04:01:49 PM »
Actually, the only reason that dolphins are considered intelligent is because that's what the mice want us to think.

All that stuff with the squeaking and the cheese is just a front.

 ;)

Offline Robin-Graves

  • Rev AJ's Grand Inquisitor
  • Homo Superior
  • *
  • Posts: 4278
  • Gender: Male
  • Power doesnt give you the right
Re: "non-human" persons?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2010, 04:24:43 PM »
I have been saying that for years.
It was the mice that contracted the construction of the Earth.
 I hunt,, but as a hunter I also respect wildlife.
I know to some that sounds like an oxymoron.
Let me explain.
 The animals that are hunted and killed are usualy the weaker of the species. The stronger survive to breed and produce stronger offspring.
Ive noticed over the eyars of deer hunting that weve ran into bigger stronger deer. AND even though you see them all over the place out of season, when the season starts, they are rare .
 Ive only gotten one this past season, where I used to get a couple.
 They are getting more cunning and physicaly stronger.
We had two hunters mauled by male deer this year ( and you people said the deer dont have a sporting chance!)
I keep my standards low.
That way im never disapointed.

Offline Skadi

  • Homo Superior
  • ******
  • Posts: 3516
Re: "non-human" persons?
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2010, 05:10:35 PM »
Has anyone seen The Cove yet?

Offline Robin-Graves

  • Rev AJ's Grand Inquisitor
  • Homo Superior
  • *
  • Posts: 4278
  • Gender: Male
  • Power doesnt give you the right
Re: "non-human" persons?
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2010, 05:20:29 PM »
I used to know a hooker that worked at a bar called The Cove if that counts.lol
I keep my standards low.
That way im never disapointed.

Offline Skadi

  • Homo Superior
  • ******
  • Posts: 3516
Re: "non-human" persons?
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2010, 01:06:37 AM »
I used to know a hooker that worked at a bar called The Cove if that counts.lol

It does count, because I'm not sure I actually know anyone else who actually knows a hooker..so it's very novel :D But, I was talking about the movie.

Offline smokester

  • Administrator
  • Q
  • *
  • Posts: 15833
  • Gender: Male
  • Da mihi castitatem et continentiam, sed noli modo!
Re: "non-human" persons?
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2010, 06:53:40 AM »
It does count, because I'm not sure I actually know anyone else who actually knows a hooker..so it's very novel :D But, I was talking about the movie.

Rumour has it we have a "Hooker" here on the boards..
Don't put off until tomorrow, what you can put off until the day after.

There is an exception to every rule, apart from this one.